No written instructions for maintenance?

[Project_PKM]

Hi everyone, I bought my 05' Tacoma brand new some years back. I generally stay away from internet forums ( sorry guys, I really just don't have time for the most part ).

I use the truck in professional capacity for both on location motion and still work and some part time duty in our local volunteer rescue applications. Lately, it has been heavily outfitted for a long term project.

I have built it up in terms of both engine and suspension components, I had spent a few months looking for professional level components, I had a really hard time in getting a straight answer in terms of a pro use suspension.

So I finally settled on a combo of the two major companies components for the suspension, coil over shocks, UCA's & rear reservoir in the back. Not going to call them out by name, want to give them a chance to do right by me.

The problem has been the following: In every single tool I own for my work, from computers, cameras, the truck, rescue and climbing and avalanche gear, there has been well thought out and to the point written documentation of installation, use, misuse and both user and professional maintenance for *every single* component or tool and how this does or does not affect the warranty. This typically is done as both a service and to protect both the company and the consumer, especially in things where potential physical harm or property damage could occur.

With my shocks and UCA's, there is nothing, absolutely nada in terms of documentation of proper use, dangers of misuse and above all, proper maintenance from either company. I have searched high and low on both sites, I have written to both companies and I have heard nothing from them over the past two days, hopefully they will pipe up soon.

So now I am faced with corroded Uniballs on a component that has a protective top cap…you know the ones I am referring to. I had usually cleaned the underside as best as I could but never really took the cap off and now the spherical bearings are toast, need to be replaced after 18 months of use. By the way, the top caps do no good at keeping debris out, they actually trap it in the top as it works it's way up from the bottom, I would be better off just leaving them off so I can at least get to the dirt and crud right away like the bottom. Since pulling the caps off recently, I did two weeks of work on the road, pulled them back off only to find more crud in the top than on the underside.

This is right smack in the middle of a major project too, it is costing me a bundle in down time. I am not happy, no one ever told me in any way how to maintain these or that they would be SO much work to keep in professional working order. When I called the company about the uniballs, they were a bit defensive when I addressed the so called "sealing" cap and not really all that sympathetic, but glad to take my money for a new set. Between the new Uniballs, cost to have them replaced, get a new alignment post install and the 250+ miles of driving, I am out hundreds on a pair of components I paid over a grand for because they had the "special" cap, but no maintenance instructions!

I have been talking to an engineer friend of mine who is helping to get me set up with a company who will help me design a full boot for the Uniballs that I now have to replace, we'll see how that goes.

Now, I have done quite a bit of reading on here in the past week, it seems there is a LOT of push from these companies to buy these products online, and they do have some presence on forums, but not much, usually to promote a new product. And they give no indication at all that these are high maintenance items. So I see a lot of ticked off people on here with thrashed uniballs on high dollar UCAs that have all learned the hard way it would seem.

What in the heck is wrong with these people? Why can't they be professional and transparent in the presentation of their products and tell people in written documentation both how to properly maintain the component and where to take your vehicle if the repair is beyond the scope of the average consumer? We can't all be weekend wrenchers and have our trucks on jacks for a week or two while these things get repaired or re-built.

I have some other things in the works for getting this resolved, but in the mean time, I wanted to address it here on a forum that seems to have at least a few competent and knowledgeable people.

Until I get a solid and reasonable answer and see a drastic change, I strongly believe that the consumer is getting a raw deal from the manufacturer as they just "Sell em' & forget em", not fully take into account who their customer base is and just let the internet vaguely and unprofessionally take care of the work they should have done before they even put these items on the market.

I look forward to adding to this community right off the bat in helping to address what I see as a serious oversight from these companies that cost the consumer all told many thousands of dollars and tons of our time wasted.

Thanks!

[ystanley]

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

Hi everyone, I bought my 05' Tacoma brand new some years back. I generally stay away from internet forums ( sorry guys, I really just don't have time for the most part ).

I use the truck in professional capacity for both on location motion and still work and some part time duty in our local volunteer rescue applications. Lately, it has been heavily outfitted for a long term project.

I have built it up in terms of both engine and suspension components, I had spent a few months looking for professional level components, I had a really hard time in getting a straight answer in terms of a pro use suspension.

So I finally settled on a combo of the two major companies components for the suspension, coil over shocks, UCAS, rear reservoir in the back, not going to call them out by name, want to give them a chance to do right by me.

The problem has been the following: In every single tool I own for my work, from computers, cameras, the truck, rescue and climbing and avalanche gear, there has been well thought out and to the point written documentation of installation, use, misuse and both user and professional maintenance for *every single* component or tool and how this does or does not affect the warranty. This typically is done as both a service and to protect both the company and the consumer, especially in things where potential physical harm or property damage could occur.

With my shocks and UCAS, there is nothing, absolutely nada in terms of proper use, dangers of misuse and above all maintenance from either company. I have searched high and low on both sites, I have written to both companies and I have heard nothing from them over the past two days, hopefully they will pipe up soon.

So now I am faced with corroded Uniballs on a component that has a protective top cap…you know the ones I am referring to. I had usually cleaned the underside as best as I could but never really took the cap off and now the spherical bearings are toast, need to be replaced after 18 months of use. The top caps do no good at keeping debris out, they actually trap it in the top as it works it's way up from the bottom, I would be better off just leaving them off so I can at least get to the dirt and crud right away like the bottom. This is right smack in the middle of a major project too, it is costing me a bundle in down time. I am not happy, no one ever told me in any way how to maintain these or that they would be SO much work to keep in professional working order. When I called the company about the uniballs, they were a bit defensive when I addressed the so called "sealing" cap, not really all that helpful, but glad to take my money for a new set. Between the new Uniballs, cost to have them replaced, get a new alignment post install and the 250+ miles of driving, I am out hundreds on a pair of components I paid over a grand for because they had the "special" cap, but no maintenance instructions!

I have been talking to an engineer friend of mine who is helping to get me set up with a company who will help me design a full boot for the Uniballs that I now have to replace, we'll see how that goes.

Now, I have done quite a bit of reading on here in the past week, it seems there is a LOT of push from these companies to buy these products, and they do have some presence online, but not much. And they give no indication at all that these are high maintenance items. So I see a lot of ticked off people on here with thrashed uniballs on high dollar UCAs that have all learned the hard way it would seem.

What in the heck is wrong with these people? Why can't they be professional and transparent in the presentation of their products and tell people in written documentation both how to properly maintain the component and where to take your vehicle if it is beyond the scope of the average consumer? We can't all have our trucks on jacks for a week or two while these things get repaired or re-built.

I have some other things in the works for getting this resolved, but in the mean time, I wanted to address it here on a forum that seems to have at least a few competent and knowledgeable people.

Until I get a solid and reasonable answer, I strongly believe that the consumer is getting a raw deal from the manufacturer as they just "Sell them and forget em", not fully take into account who their customer base is and just let the internet vaguely and unprofessionally take care of the work they should be doing.

I look forward to adding to this community right off the bat in helping to address what I see as a serious oversight from these companies that cost the consumer all told many thousands of dollars and tons of our time wasted.

Thanks!

So from what i am gathering the unibals and uca's that you went with are the ones from Icon. Correct. I have a pair of camburg's that i have had on my truck since last may. I love em. As far as maintenance goes i think it shoudl have been a no brainer to check them ever so often to see what was going on with them and clean them out. Those caps like you say will trap debree's in the top. Good luck and keep us posted on whats going on. Good write up by the way.

[Project_PKM]

Originally Posted by ystanley

So from what i am gathering the unibals and uca's that you went with are the ones from Icon. Correct. I have a pair of camburg's that i have had on my truck since last may. I love em. As far as maintenance goes i think it shoudl have been a no brainer to check them ever so often to see what was going on with them and clean them out. Those caps like you say will trap debree's in the top. Good luck and keep us posted on whats going on. Good write up by the way.

Thanks for the reply, I am glad you wrote the thing about the "No brainer" thing, I don't take offense to it at all. I think this is where a big part of the problem lies, there is too much assumption from many sides that the entire customer base of these products should inherently know this information.

This is not and never will be the case, it is human nature that one person will know and the other won't. Most companies overcome this by simply providing at least a minimum of information in terms of proper maintenance and what is considered normal use and abuse, often citing what will void the warranty.

I also think that what these companies don't realize is that until the internet, the customer base was basically magazine, walk in and word of mouth driven. So right off the bat, there was an underlying infrastructure to educate the customer. But with internet sales, the face to face with the customer does not happen, so the base has expanded vastly and yet, they might not even know how many new types of customers there are. So they just assume..

But still, even with assumptions, there is usually a minimum of maintenance info. Not in the case of these suspension components....that baffles me.

Good night for now..:-)

[ystanley]

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

Thanks for the reply, I am glad you wrote the thing about the "No brainer" thing, I don't take offense to it at all. I think this is where a big part of the problem lies, there is too much assumption from many sides that the entire customer base of these products should inherently know this information.

This is not and never will be the case, it is human nature that one person will know and the other won't. Most companies overcome this by simply providing at least a minimum of information in terms of proper maintenance and what is considered normal use and abuse, often citing what will void the warranty.

I also think that what these companies don't realize is that until the internet, the customer base was basically magazine, walk in and word of mouth driven. So right off the bat, there was an underlying infrastructure to educate the customer. But with internet sales, the face to face with the customer does not happen, so the base has expanded vastly and yet, they might not even know how many new types of customers there are. So they just assume..

But still, even with assumptions, there is usually a minimum of maintenance info. Not in the case of these suspension components....that baffles me.

Good night for now..:-)

You are rigth. Honestly that is where the problem lies. I work in the consumer industry with tires. I work at a company called les schwab here in utah. People just assume that you will warranty a tire for tire wear from allignment issues that you told them about. I agree that the ucs manafacturer should have written some maintenance suggestions for the uca's.

Were they infact the icon ones? Those are the only ones that i know of that make that style of control arms. Anyways what did they say when you called and asked them about it.

Sorry about the no brainer part i didnt mean to offend you. I sometimes dont think about what i say. Anyways keep us here posted about what you find out on your situtaion.

[TacoDell]

"Racing Parts" or "for off road use only"

^ common disclaimer for performance upgrades/components.

fact is the business's want in with the money, but not the liability...
they are not in the business of making DOT/OEM approved replacement parts.
they make aftermarket performance parts, ie... racing components.
To be utilized by folk whom have a mechanical apptitude and have an understanding of implied use.

They're designed to be used off road... and are not DOT/OEM approved/certified in most cases... and just because it's bolt on in many circumstances... doesn't mean that they were designed for general public useage.
Most racing parts are made up of consumables... and are replaced after one or several races... Not the same thing as expecting to obtain 60,000 miles of use... on a daily driver.
Meaning... performance components aren't necessarily built for the long haul... just immediate performance gains.

If DOT/OEM certification were required... most of us couldn't afford any of this stuff... these companies would be outta business due to exorbant costs and ya'll wouldn't have the opportunity to upgrade shit... unless you made/built it yerself.

and again...
these aftermarket performance parts are not oem replacement parts... sure they bolt up for the most part... but they are racing components...
and racing... usually involves... some maintenance... last I knew.

just sayin'

Sadly in the business's interest of making bank... they sell this stuff to the unwitting general public. Which IMO... they probably shouldn't.

But it's the buyers responsibility to know what the fuck they waste their money on.

so get informed... or eat shit everytime

-------------------------------------------------

Hey OP...
you failed... simply because you didn't do enough reading on the subject before executing yer build.

Sorry you feel that you were jilted... But the fact is... you didn't do enough homework.

Now you want to dump your responsibility of that on others.

spilled milk... I'd say.

Man up or just sell yer performance related parts and put shit back to stock.
Not sure why you thought you needed it... in the first place.

A stock TRD can go most anyplace yer photo hobby would lead you.

[Project_PKM]

Originally Posted by TacoDell

"Racing Parts" or "for off road use only"

^ common disclaimer for performance upgrades/components.

fact is the business's want in with the money, but not the liability...
they are not in the business of making DOT/OEM approved replacement parts.
they make aftermarket performance parts, ie... racing components.
To be utilized by folk whom have a mechanical apptitude and have an understanding of implied use.

They're designed to be used off road... and are not DOT/OEM approved/certified in most cases... and just because it's bolt on in many circumstances... doesn't mean that they were designed for general public useage.
Most racing parts are made up of consumables... and are replaced after one or several races... Not the same thing as expecting to obtain 60,000 miles of use... on a daily driver.
Meaning... performance components aren't necessarily built for the long haul... just immediate performance gains.

If DOT/OEM certification were required... most of us couldn't afford any of this stuff... these companies would be outta business due to exorbant costs and ya'll wouldn't have the opportunity to upgrade shit... unless you made/built it yerself.

and again...
these aftermarket performance parts are not oem replacement parts... sure they bolt up for the most part... but they are racing components...
and racing... usually involves... some maintenance... last I knew.

just sayin'

Sadly in the business's interest of making bank... they sell this stuff to the unwitting general public. Which IMO... they probably shouldn't.

But it's the buyers responsibility to know what the fuck they waste their money on.

so get informed... or eat shit everytime

-------------------------------------------------

Hey OP...
you failed... simply because you didn't do enough reading on the subject before executing yer build.

Sorry you feel that you were jilted... But the fact is... you didn't do enough homework.

Now you want to dump your responsibility of that on others.

spilled milk... I'd say.

Man up or just sell yer performance related parts and put shit back to stock.
Not sure why you thought you needed it... in the first place.

A stock TRD can go most anyplace yer photo hobby would lead you.

Hey Fly guy, maybe you missed the part about pro use, meaning I get paid to use my vehicle off road. For tax reasons, the percentage is 90% write off as per my CPA, 98% of that from professional photography / film making, a small percentage for volunteer mountain rescue operations which is less of a tax break.

Now that we have that cleared up, you are right that the companies ought not sell the equipment to the general public, but only because they can not seem to provide what is reasonable and customary instruction and documentation about what to expect from the product in terms of both lifespan in various use scenarios and proper maintenance, how it affects the warranty.

But here we are, in the face of sweeping changes for many industries due to the internet, some good, some not. Some like Earthroamer are biting the dust ( Economy ) and others are doing well on the balance sheet, but not so hot in terms of full scope customer service.

So what is probably going to happen is that enough awareness will be raised that changes are made. And these changes will make it to where the companies like Icon, Total Chaos and Camburg will all serve their past, present and future customer base better by really taking a pro active role in bringing quality service in totality to the fold.

This will not only prevent more unhappy customers as these companies become more transparent about their product lines, it will help foster a better public image overall as the industry as a whole adapts to their new customer's needs.

And for what it is worth, I asked at least a half a dozen dealers and 4WD shops over a 3 month period what the most capable and *professional* suspension companies were, every one listed Icon, Camburg, Total Chaos, Fox and OME. I also did some research on this and one other site and in most cases, it was very hard to tell who was giving sound advice and who was not. Top that off with what is often juvenile, rude, redneck good Ol' boys club behavior and I simply did not trust this place at first.

Look, I don't doubt their is maintenance needed on all of this stuff, I used to work on Helicopters and F-14's in the Navy, but what there is simply not is any kind of documentation in regards to maintenance needs of these products.

That is just plain wrong, no matter what your experience, I think this is glaringly obvious and that in the age of the internet, this really needs to change and soon.

Thanks for your reply either way, it is helping my course.

[Project_PKM]

Originally Posted by ystanley

You are rigth. Honestly that is where the problem lies. I work in the consumer industry with tires. I work at a company called les schwab here in utah. People just assume that you will warranty a tire for tire wear from allignment issues that you told them about. I agree that the ucs manafacturer should have written some maintenance suggestions for the uca's.

Were they infact the icon ones? Those are the only ones that i know of that make that style of control arms. Anyways what did they say when you called and asked them about it.

Sorry about the no brainer part i didnt mean to offend you. I sometimes dont think about what i say. Anyways keep us here posted about what you find out on your situtaion.

I'm going to PM you a couple answers...

[Jomentum]

There are no real "written maintenance" intervals for off-road use.

I did find this from one off road parts Co.. :


1. Visually inspect all equipment for clearance and unusual wear.

2. Regularly clean and inspect equipment such as suspension components, heim joints, polyurethane bushings and all hardware. Replace items as necessary. All suspension components are available for individual replacement. We strongly recommend the suspension system be installed by an authorized installation center. OFF ROAD COMPONENT CO. reserves the right to warranty any components that we have determined to be product or material defective. Off-road abuse can damage suspension components.

3. BREAK IN PERIOD. After every installation we recommend checking the torque of all nuts and bolts to assure that the torque has taken. Some minor adjustments may need to be made.

4. The customer assumes all responsibility for the use of all equipment and the proper maintenance of said equipment. This equipment will alter the center of gravity of your vehicle and also the handling characteristics that you may be accustomed to. Even though your vehicle may have a wider track width it is capable of rolling over. Please wear your seat belt and demand that all passengers do so as well.

5. Please remember that no matter how well your vehicle is built it is only as safe as you drive it. This equipment is designed to improve the performance of your vehicle. INCREASING PERFORMANCE ALSO INCREASES YOUR RISK WHILE OPERATING THIS VEHICLE. The operator must know and understand the vehicles handling characteristics. None of this equipment is guaranteed to be free of defect or to protect the driver or occupants from death or injury in the event of a collision. Please drive in a safe and sane manner.

[Project_PKM]

Thanks!

Now this is at least a start. It still does not mention what types of methods are employed in cleaning the parts, what if anything to use for lubricant.

I'll give an example, several posts on this site have people complaining of squeaking uniballs. Some say to clean and then lube it with tri-flow, dry Teflon lube, some wet lube. Some say use WD-40, even one of the dealers in one case, which we all know is wrong.

So even after several years, it is still kind of vague and there is no documentation, no input from the manufacturers. In the case of the upper control arms, most are using the same type of aircraft based stainless steel spherical bearing. So it should not be that hard to determine what the maintenance needs are based on broad use.

Thanks again for your reply, lets keep them coming and get those changes in place that will save a lot of us unfair headaches..:-)

Originally Posted by Jomentum

There are no real "written maintenance" intervals for off-road use.

I did find this from one off road parts Co.. :


1. Visually inspect all equipment for clearance and unusual wear.

2. Regularly clean and inspect equipment such as suspension components, heim joints, polyurethane bushings and all hardware. Replace items as necessary. All suspension components are available for individual replacement. We strongly recommend the suspension system be installed by an authorized installation center. OFF ROAD COMPONENT CO. reserves the right to warranty any components that we have determined to be product or material defective. Off-road abuse can damage suspension components.

3. BREAK IN PERIOD. After every installation we recommend checking the torque of all nuts and bolts to assure that the torque has taken. Some minor adjustments may need to be made.

4. The customer assumes all responsibility for the use of all equipment and the proper maintenance of said equipment. This equipment will alter the center of gravity of your vehicle and also the handling characteristics that you may be accustomed to. Even though your vehicle may have a wider track width it is capable of rolling over. Please wear your seat belt and demand that all passengers do so as well.

5. Please remember that no matter how well your vehicle is built it is only as safe as you drive it. This equipment is designed to improve the performance of your vehicle. INCREASING PERFORMANCE ALSO INCREASES YOUR RISK WHILE OPERATING THIS VEHICLE. The operator must know and understand the vehicles handling characteristics. None of this equipment is guaranteed to be free of defect or to protect the driver or occupants from death or injury in the event of a collision. Please drive in a safe and sane manner.

[drabnor]

You are really not supposed to lube uniballs/heims/spherical bearings because they already have lubrication built in. They do wear out and you have to replace them. You have to get that through your head, they are race truck parts. When you put race truck parts on non race vehicles and you neglect them, crap happens. How long do you think a race team goes on a uniball? It gets at least checked if not replaced every race. The reason there are no published specs is because everyone's aplication is different, a uniball might last me a year, you two, the nexy guy 6 months. How can you possibly try to quantify all the different uses/abuses/environment that these parts get used in?

Like Dell said, if you want stock reliability/ease of mainenace, keep the truck stock.

[Project_PKM]

I am pretty sure that 99% of the users of this site are not racing their trucks. I am also willing to bet at least 70% of the users of this site are not using their trucks in full time professional capacity. But several are buying these components based on the hype one finds on this site through both forum topics and ads alone. The rest are from word of mouth or dealer / shop recommendations like in my case.

So...do you have a recommendation of where I can get a significantly upgraded suspension for professional off road use then?

For my use, the application of this equipment is thousands of miles of off road, washboard, bad roads, logging roads, etc for sustained remote expedition use. Heavy duty, strong, long travel, heat dissipating suspension components are definitely helping with mitigating this.

Let me give some perspective at least in terms of my area of use. With the stock suspension I hit 4x4 piece of wood on a two lane highway at night. It was really rough, it bottomed out then I nearly lost control. That was in the first year I had the truck.

Back in August, I was driving to Salt lake via Green River in Utah, again, at night. Right when a semi was blinding me as it was about to pass by in the opposite lane, I spotted a large, freshly hit Elk carcass in my lane, nearly two feet high. I had no choice but to brace and hit it. My left front wheel hit then my rear, I did catch air, but the truck held the line and was solid as it gets, I thought that was outstanding performance by my suspension. It did damage my front bumper but basically the truck flew over the carcass unscathed.

The performance aspect of this equipment on our vehicle has been worth the upgrade, now all we need is good manufacturer instruction for maintenance.

Also, while I now understand you don't lube the uniball, you do clean it, what do you clean it with? This part is *highly* exposed to the elements, again, most people on this site who use these components are not racing, professional users, keep that in mind as I ask this....

Again, documentation on behalf of the entire potential user base is long over due. I am willing to bet that the fraction of sales to non-race users is much higher than racing vehicles in the internet age so it is high time the companies that hype these products up on a site like this start making changes that reflect the total customer base, there is simply NO excuse for this.

I have the replacement bearings, but I am now waiting on installing them until we can improve the design of this UCA's use of spherical bearings. Due to the size and construction of my UCA's, my engineer thinks it will be fairly easy to fabricate a lower boot for the bearing, we are talking to some robotics companies that specialize in undersea and high exposure component manufacture and design.

By the way, at least in terms of Icon's products, despite what you may assert, they are not for racing:

"Icon Vehicle Dynamics products are not designed, nor are they intended to be installed on vehicles used in race applications, for racing purposes or for similar activities. (A “race” is defined as any contest between two or more vehicles, or a contest of one or more vehicles against the clock, whether or not such contest is for a prize). This warranty does not include coverage for police or taxi vehicles, race vehicles, or vehicles used for government or commercial purposes."

http://www.iconvehicledynamics.com/p...con_5-7505.pdf

So that leaves consumer and or recreational use.....the great big mystery of aftermarket suspension component's lack of proper maintenance instructions continues...

Originally Posted by drabnor

You are really not supposed to lube uniballs/heims/spherical bearings because they already have lubrication built in. They do wear out and you have to replace them. You have to get that through your head, they are race truck parts. When you put race truck parts on non race vehicles and you neglect them, crap happens. How long do you think a race team goes on a uniball? It gets at least checked if not replaced every race. The reason there are no published specs is because everyone's aplication is different, a uniball might last me a year, you two, the nexy guy 6 months. How can you possibly try to quantify all the different uses/abuses/environment that these parts get used in?

Like Dell said, if you want stock reliability/ease of mainenace, keep the truck stock.

[TacoDell]

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

Hey Fly guy, maybe you missed the part about pro use, meaning I get paid to use my vehicle off road. For tax reasons, the percentage is 90% write off as per my CPA, 98% of that from professional photography / film making, a small percentage for volunteer mountain rescue operations which is less of a tax break.

Buying a suspension system no matter how good it is...
doesn't make you a pro... What makes you a pro... is wisdom and experience.

Something all yer money cannot buy.

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

Now that we have that cleared up, you are right that the companies ought not sell the equipment to the general public, but only because they can not seem to provide what is reasonable and customary instruction and documentation about what to expect from the product in terms of both lifespan in various use scenarios and proper maintenance, how it affects the warranty.

This is not a hobby for professionals... it's for wheeler's
Of which you don't seem to fit the bill... by my standards

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

But here we are, in the face of sweeping changes for many industries due to the internet, some good, some not. Some like Earthroamer are biting the dust ( Economy ) and others are doing well on the balance sheet, but not so hot in terms of full scope customer service.

fuck the internet... and all the wannbe dweebs on it.
try the real world dipshit.

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

So what is probably going to happen is that enough awareness will be raised that changes are made. And these changes will make it to where the companies like Icon, Total Chaos and Camburg will all serve their past, present and future customer base better by really taking a pro active role in bringing quality service in totality to the fold.

This will not only prevent more unhappy customers as these companies become more transparent about their product lines, it will help foster a better public image overall as the industry as a whole adapts to their new customer's needs.

blah blah blah
again... fuck the internet dweebs that think the world evolves for you.
Maybe you all should try to learn more from the experienced... instead of ignoring that.

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

And for what it is worth, I asked at least a half a dozen dealers and 4WD shops over a 3 month period what the most capable and *professional* suspension companies were, every one listed Icon, Camburg, Total Chaos, Fox and OME. I also did some research on this and one other site and in most cases, it was very hard to tell who was giving sound advice and who was not. Top that off with what is often juvenile, rude, redneck good Ol' boys club behavior and I simply did not trust this place at first.

so trust those whom want yer money... and forget those folk that are the actual consumers of said products. Yeah... that makes sense.

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

Look, I don't doubt their is maintenance needed on all of this stuff, I used to work on Helicopters and F-14's in the Navy, but what there is simply not is any kind of documentation in regards to maintenance needs of these products.

That is just plain wrong, no matter what your experience, I think this is glaringly obvious and that in the age of the internet, this really needs to change and soon.

So yer like one of those textbook kinda guys that don't know how to wipe their ass... without someone briefing you with instructions ?
Try thinking outside of the box...

Maybe the good 'ole boys could learn you something...

oh... but they're not professionals

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

Thanks for your reply either way, it is helping my course.

I think yer beyond help...

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

I am pretty sure that 99% of the users of this site are not racing their trucks. I am also willing to bet at least 70% of the users of this site are not using their trucks in full time professional capacity. But several are buying these components based on the hype one finds on this site through both forum topics and ads alone. The rest are from word of mouth or dealer / shop recommendations like in my case.

90% of the idiots here never leave the pavement... seeing that this is supposed to be an offroad site... it sucks that you internet homo's want to breach into a field that you have not a fucking clue about.
Then get offended when someone trys to point that out.
so I say... fuck 'em... feed 'em fish.

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

So...do you have a recommendation of where I can get a significantly upgraded suspension for professional off road use then?

You have one... but you'll need to hire a mechanic that knows something about... well... mechanics.
as you seem to be the professional type that just wants to shift they're auto tranny into drive... and expect the world delivered on a platter.

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

For my use, the application of this equipment is thousands of miles of off road, washboard, bad roads, logging roads, etc for sustained remote expedition use. Heavy duty, strong, long travel, heat dissipating suspension components are definitely helping with mitigating this.

Yer trying to put performance enhancing products on a truck... so that you can run over shit in the road...

Back in August, I was driving to Salt lake via Green River in Utah, again, at night. Right when a semi was blinding me as it was about to pass by in the opposite lane, I spotted a large, freshly hit Elk carcass in my lane, nearly two feet high. I had no choice but to brace and hit it. My left front wheel hit then my rear, I did catch air, but the truck held the line and was solid as it gets, I thought that was outstanding performance by my suspension. It did damage my front bumper but basically the truck flew over the carcass unscathed.

You want a suspension that allows you to run over dead animals or wood scrapes laying in the roadway
There's no suspension designed for that use.

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

The performance aspect of this equipment on our vehicle has been worth the upgrade, now all we need is good manufacturer instruction for maintenance.

Also, while I now understand you don't lube the uniball, you do clean it, what do you clean it with? This part is *highly* exposed to the elements, again, most people on this site who use these components are not racing, professional users, keep that in mind as I ask this....

Again, documentation on behalf of the entire potential user base is long over due. I am willing to bet that the fraction of sales to non-race users is much higher than racing vehicles in the internet age so it is high time the companies that hype these products up on a site like this start making changes that reflect the total customer base, there is simply NO excuse for this.

blah blah blah...
get off yer fucking soapbox...

How the fuck can you be a professional... but be so clueless.

fucking suitz

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

I have the replacement bearings, but I am now waiting on installing them until we can improve the design of this UCA's use of spherical bearings. Due to the size and construction of my UCA's, my engineer thinks it will be fairly easy to fabricate a lower boot for the bearing, we are talking to some robotics companies that specialize in undersea and high exposure component manufacture and design.

So just lose the UCA's... the OEM UCA and ball joints are plenty strong.
I've been wheelin' the OEM UCA for 10 years now... and it has never failed.
period. There is no real world advantage to running aftermarket UCA unless yer just trying to push the extremes of wheel travel... along with that comes more maintenance and premature wear.

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

By the way, at least in terms of Icon's products, despite what you may assert, they are not for racing:

"Icon Vehicle Dynamics products are not designed, nor are they intended to be installed on vehicles used in race applications, for racing purposes or for similar activities. (A “race” is defined as any contest between two or more vehicles, or a contest of one or more vehicles against the clock, whether or not such contest is for a prize). This warranty does not include coverage for police or taxi vehicles, race vehicles, or vehicles used for government or commercial purposes."

http://www.iconvehicledynamics.com/p...con_5-7505.pdf

So that leaves consumer and or recreational use.....the great big mystery of aftermarket suspension component's lack of proper maintenance instructions continues...

They're just stating the fact of the warranty... that if these parts are used for racing or competition.. that would void the warranty.

Fact is the previous original owner (Kreg Donahoe) of ICON was a racer... and used the parts his company produced... on their race truck. And it held up to some abuse... to win a few races.

Then Kreg fucked up his life... and ICON was born.

Maybe you should go back to the dipshits that sold you all this stuff and ask them why they sold you high performance parts instead of building yer junk for heavy duty use... You actually do have some of the best components going. But yer not seemingly bright enough to understand things.

Tho' instructions for some things is kinda helpful.

I've never needed instructions for anything I've ever bolted up to my junk.

But then... I'm no internet professional...

just a good 'ole boy

[ike]

sounds to me that you sholdnt have bought that parts if they didnt provide the documentation that you now feel is needed at the time of purchase

[Project_PKM]

Hindsight is indeed 20/20...and I never wear a suit Mr. Del Taco ( Used to live in Ca, nice twist on the chain ).

Bottom line? It's time this industry made some changes, and I am going to be one of the people who are instrumental in these changes. The companies and the consumers will benefit.

So while I figure out a maintenance plan, get a boot system made for the UCA's, I will keep on this, you can be sure of that. It looks like I probably need to expand this awareness across several forums now by the responses here, that's pretty clear...

And just to make this *crystal* clear, I want to see positive changes take place for both the manufacturers and the consumers, I believe there is a solid opportunity here for this to occur, but you all have to think well beyond the old / pre-internet ways of doing things.

Think positive, think forward but think of everyone here, not just those who have close ties to experience or the resources in terms of what *used* to be the way a consumer would deal with maintaining these products.

Trust me, it will be better this way...

[TacoDell]

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

Hindsight is indeed 20/20...and I never wear a suit Mr. Del Taco ( Used to live in Ca, nice twist on the chain ).

Yeah OK... but yer beginning to sound like a typical liberal politician...

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

Bottom line? It's time this industry made some changes, and I am going to be one of the people who are instrumental in these changes. The companies and the consumers will benefit.

I think the industry is just fine without the noobie wannabe's meddling in business they have no fucking clue about.

I don't see how you come to the conclusion that consumers will benefit.
Yer suggesting that off the road industry/business(s) to be regulated. And forced to take liability for their products with disclosure statements.
That would drive consumer cost up. There is no way in hell the consumer will benefit from that

The only outcome that could come of yer plans to rule the industry..

Is that you will drive these small business... out of business... especially if you try to force yer will upon them using regulatory laws to enforce a set of standards of liabilty.

The business's in this industry are not Microsoft big ya know...
just small mom and pop shops... for the most part.

Folks that wheel... don't need you to bring on more regulations.
And if they do... they are simply idiots and should end their lives now.

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

So while I figure out a maintenance plan, get a boot system made for the UCA's, I will keep on this, you can be sure of that. It looks like I probably need to expand this awareness across several forums now by the responses here, that's pretty clear...

eh... you just don't get it...
You think that because yer a greenhorn... so is everyone else.
But you'd be wrong.

I personally don't believe things should be made easier for the dumbass masses. If they can't figure these things out for themselves. Then they shouldn't be spending money on shit they know nothing about.
And if they do... well... then that's their problem... not the worlds problem.

Now if you want to improve on a design and share that with others.
Get a boot system made ? (how about make shit yerself ?)
In the off road world... the real people make corrections and improvements for themselves. Then they share that on these type of forums, with others.
That would be called sharing and contributing with the intent to bring awarness and/or improvement of a product and it's install or even the maintenance of that.

Sadly... it would seem you got misleading advice from the place you purchased.
You went to an offroad shop instead of a shop that deals with professional vehicles designed for emergency uses... ie.. police, fire, etc.
That's what you needed... heavy duty... not offroad perfomance duty shit.

Bottom line... you don't need all the stuff they sold you.
But you bought it... 'cause yer a greenhorn and you didn't want to deal with the unrefined good ole boys and the information from this site... well... that's yer mistake.

All the products you bought... and the questions you had (but failed to ask the right people)... could have been easily answered... with a simple phone call, by you, to the products manufacturer. You failed to do anything for yourself... And now you want to blame anyone and everyone... except yourself.
Shame on you.

And now you think the industry should change because without instructions...
Yer just another dumbass... (sad is the truth)

An embarrassment on yer part... if'n you ask me.

sadly... it would seem... the dumbasses rule the world.
Guess since yer gonna ruin the industry...

I should start looking for a new hobby

[Project_PKM]

Oh boy, this is really gaining in quality...

I want to see simple instructions that cover a few reasonable case scenarios, not industry regulation.

"Instruction" is spelled with an I, not an R, "yer" reading it all wrong.

And I am not the only one who thinks this by the way, I am just the first to really spell it out clearly ( for those who have average reading comprehension skills ).

I *am* making the boot my self and I will share it on here. For now, the dealer and I agreed that it would be better if I just leave the top protective cap off so I can more readily maintain the Uniball on the UCA, makes sense to me.

What I see here is an opportunity to make things better, to make a better connection between the company and the consumer. A business does not succeed on the heralding of a good product alone, it takes an understanding of the market they are in and constantly re-evaluating who their customer base is. And above all, it takes covering all your bases in terms of customer relations.

Now, how about you live up to the offering of advice and chime in on the thread I started about a maintenance schedule, because you and I are not getting anything done in terms of improving the industry by going back and forth.

To put it in terms yew' can understand, Wer'e dun on theese hear deescussion..:-)

[greasydick]

anyone here ever heard of the "deck plate mod"?
Is it worth the extra power and also would it void my warranty?

[TacoDell]

I dunno...

but have you ever heard of a man wearing UGG boots ?

[Project_PKM]

Originally Posted by TacoDell

I dunno...

but have you ever heard of a man wearing UGG boots ?

Ummm...no, just surfer types in Cali back when I was in High School, I could not afford the things so that made it easy to pass.

On another note, I am doing pretty good at getting some positive direction from this thread....and no, you don't have anything to worry about.

I am far more mechanically inclined than I let on by the way, was damn good w/ a pair of safety wire pliers on those nasty-ass J-52's in the old A-6 Intruder.

[Jomentum]

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

Oh boy, this is really gaining in quality...

I want to see simple instructions that cover a few reasonable case scenarios, not industry regulation.

"Instruction" is spelled with an I, not an R, "yer" reading it all wrong.

Thanks for the spelling lesson

And I am not the only one who thinks this by the way, I am just the first to really spell it out clearly ( for those who have average reading comprehension skills ).

I *am* making the boot my self and I will share it on here. For now, the dealer and I agreed that it would be better if I just leave the top protective cap off so I can more readily maintain the Uniball on the UCA, makes sense to me.

What I see here is an opportunity to make things better, to make a better connection between the company and the consumer. A business does not succeed on the heralding of a good product alone, it takes an understanding of the market they are in and constantly re-evaluating who their customer base is. And above all, it takes covering all your bases in terms of customer relations.

Now, how about you live up to the offering of advice and chime in on the thread I started about a maintenance schedule, because you and I are not getting anything done in terms of improving the industry by going back and forth.

To put it in terms yew' can understand, Wer'e dun on theese hear deescussion..:-)

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

I am far more mechanically inclined than I let on by the way, was damn good w/ a pair of safety wire pliers on those nasty-ass J-52's in the old A-6 Intruder.

Ok, So You call Yourself a "professional" user of these products ?

Yet You come on this forum, Right off the bat, You cant use simple logic to conclude how to "search" out any ideas how to clean the joints on components You (or someone) has installed on YOUR vehicle.

I'm sure there are service/maintenenance instructions somewhere for Uniball/heim/johnny joints
( I have none on my vehicle, So why should I search)

You make a great 1st impression, by getting on here and climb on a soapbox, to complain that "offroad use" components have no clear cut maintenance instructions.

We have been doing solid axle swaps on Toyota's for years without any "instructions", or what parts to use.

We shared our research to HELP OTHERS to do the same..

Yes, now there are companies that manufacture Full kits for axle swaps and offer components and instructions on how to do so.

The companies that offer components, leave it up to the consumer to decide for themselves how to take care of their own vehicles, and expect that we would have some sort of COMMON SENSE to find out what to do to best maintain our "professional" vehicles.

[Project_PKM]

Originally Posted by Jomentum

and expect that we would have some sort of COMMON SENSE to find out what to do to best maintain our "professional" vehicles.

And that, in a nutshell is the biggest failing of the old school off road community and industry, online included: You are not *quite* getting it that the customer base has expanded vastly and that what was once "COMMON" is no longer the case.

Until you connect with the fact that there are more and more intelligent people out there who want to find a better way to be safe, able and productive in using their personal or professionally used vehicles off road and that we too, deserve respect and consideration, some of you are going to continue to alienate and needlessly insult the very people you once were..

A newcomer.

We ALL have to start somewhere bud, and if the internet is going to continue to be a grand sales ground for these parts, then it really would serve all of us much better if the manufacturers of them put even a bit more effort into the instruction of proper maintenance.

And I suspect that you don't think I realize the value of the experience here and that I don't appreciate what you *have* done as a community in regards to shared knowledge. Well that would be patently false, I really do appreciate and respect it, but I see opportunity for improvement as far as input from the companies go, so try not to misread that or take it as a personal affront to your industry or community.

After all, sometimes it takes an outside view or idea to get to the next level. It's not a crime that thinking can become stale or narrow from unintended consequences.

So this will continue...

[Scuba]

Instead of fabricating dust covers, Try contacting allpro for dust covers for the uniballs

http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum....php?p=1757833


FWIW, I believe this thread is somewhat constructive, It deff has me thinking about my next planned purchase.
Im not afraid of the fact I will have to change out a uniball eventually, they arent much more (if even less) then a stock ball joint. But now I'm thinking more about protecting and cleaning of the uniball.

[Jomentum]

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

You are not *quite* getting it that the customer base has expanded vastly and that what was once "COMMON" is no longer the case.

So this will continue...

You may be right, not too much COMMON SENSE.....
To have the whole Innerwebnet at ones disposal, the information is out there....somewhere.

Oh, we ALL get it, the one point I was Trying to make, is that the information that You seek.... IS out there.

Maybe someone can point You in the right direction.

[not2XS]

I think I see a couple of reasons why you are having somewhat of a hard time.
One is your definition of the word "professional", while perfectly logical and sound, and even comonplace in arenas outside of this one, does not match the definition of "professional" for many of the people you are talking to here. To you, a proffesional user seems to be one who uses their truck in the course of using their expertise for pay. To many of the people you are talking to, a professional user of racing parts is someone who makes their living by their expertise at racing.

Another reason is that to a very large extent, EXPECTED use of off-road (or any) racing parts is mostly UNREASONABLE use. So a call for documentation for "reasonable use scenarios" is largely superfluous. And, despite the liability disclaimers you read, you do seem to actually be talking about the products of racing-part manufacturers.

Now, I do sympathize with you. I too would like to have seen better information on rebuilding of such parts when I needed it. If you get your way, more power to you. If you don't, be aware that to a large extent such is the nature of the beast. It may simply be you got into something not what you were expecting.

[Quattro15]

I just called ICON up and talked to them about how to care for my Coilovers.

Wasn't difficult at all??

I looked in the box and was like...hrmm, no cleaning/lube info. And well, I called them to see what I should do considering where I was located and what I was using them for.

They were super nice, told me what to do, and that was that.

[Project_PKM]

Great responses guys, thanks.

What has caused me to bring this to the attention of this forum can be traced directly to the Icon UCA top caps and my expectation of them at least helping to keep the crap out, of which, they really do not, they trap it in, badly I will add.

So common sense has always served me well, but eluded me in maintaing my balls..

I called ICON from a shop in the middle of Kansas and while they were cool to me in regards to helping me get my new balls, they were not so kind in tone as to my questions about the top caps and what in the heck they were even there for. This is what got me pissed, the assuming who your customer is and that they should inherently know to remove the cover to access the balls as easily as any other UCA.

So I did learn the hard way.

I am kind of over it now and I now know that unlike other products I own, I am not going to be able to simply cut and paste and update my scheduled maintenance print outs with manufacturer approved maintenance tips. It is either going to have to come from a forum like this or be transcribed from a phone conversation.

As far as the covers from All Pro, I will give them a call tomorrow, but I doubt they will fit due to the recessed access in the arms, I did not see any photos of them at least that I recognized so I am not sure.

I just wish this were different and easier, it seems it could be, but here we are, all of us together with our dirty balls..

It could be worse though…

Every single time a damn SH-3 would fly in our squadron, I would have to purge 56 grease fittings on the rotor head alone. The main rotor head spherical bearing was huge, I would pull out handfuls of crapped out grease from the bottom and have to shove it in rags…man I hated that, the SH-60 is now much better I hear…

Aircraft maintenance, now talk about intensive!

Have a great weekend folks!

[Project_PKM]

Oh, by the way, who *does* make suspension components for industrial / expedition use applications?

Searches and phone calls don't really turn up much..

[drabnor]

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

Oh, by the way, who *does* make suspension components for industrial / expedition use applications?

Searches and phone calls don't really turn up much..

toyota does, keep it stock

[TacoDell]

Light Racing... <--- think it's called...
makes an UCA that utilizes the oem ball joint. (there may be others)
But the LR'ing UCA is redesigned to compensate for suspension lift and will allow for a better (easier) front end alignment.

Keeping the oem ball joint is the key to no maintenance.

Anything that utilizes a uni ball... has a user life much shorter then the oem ball joints...

I have 140K on my oem upper ball joints and I have put 10 years of of trail abuse on my junk
currently still utilizing the OEM UCA's, upper and lower OEM BJ's...
and with No failure...

For some odd reason... you have come to some conclusion that the OEM stuff on a Tacoma is not up to snuff for industrial duty...

But you'd be dead wrong...

and IMO... you wasted yer money buying stuff... that you did not need.

Yer likely to have more issues and possible failures then just leaving some components OEM...

The CO's are worthwhile investment... But I'm not a fan of the extended versions, as I believe... they are harder on the OEM suspension travel perimeters, including CV's, BJ's and steering racks.

Folks I know that wheel with those components seem to have more opportunity for failure then I.

If one must go with a longer travel suspension... I'd recommend side stepping the Ext. travel CO set ups and go straight up for a Long Travel (LT) kit. At least they redesigned the suspension in a way that actually redesigns the travel perimeters and it works better and is prolly more reliable then pushing the OEM wheel travel limits...
But then that is definately a competion type suspension system and would require maintenance... dependant on abuse and use.

Putting yer junk back to stock is what you should do.
add some adjustable OEM length CO's up front... with a decent leaf pack and some quality shocks out back and you'd be good to go.

[not2XS]

Originally Posted by Project_PKM

Oh, by the way, who *does* make suspension components for industrial / expedition use applications?

Searches and phone calls don't really turn up much..

The most important part to upgrade is the nut that holds the steering wheel!

For expedition use, don't be afraid of taking it through some pretty gnarly situations, but drive it like you dont want to break it while getting there.

After-market UCAs and high-end coilovers are targeted more towards a different usage pattern, something closer to "beat the crap out of it and stay on top of fixing it".

I agree with drabnor. For what it sounds like you really want your truck to do, the toyota stock truck is easily more than capable, despite the couple of events you mention. Many people here regularly take stock trucks through some pretty amazing situations, and its hard to beat for needing minimal attention. But it still requires regular inspection if you're tough on it. Or perhaps mildly modified.



P.S. "...I just wish this were different and easier, it seems it could be..." and "...Searches and phone calls don't really turn up much..." are just what the guys over at Icon and the other places were thinking when they started. There's a thought!